.22lr Ammo testing/resizing

[noremf]

New guy to the forum....Bob Bauer talked me into it today.

I am also on Rimfire Central and am doing some testing....see below... and Bob thought
it would be good to also post the stuff here.

Here is what I posted already on RFC. Bob says he has to approve the first 2 posting
to keep the rifraff out so I don't know for sure when this will get on plus it will probably
take me awhile, since I am old and decrepit, to figure out how to use this forum.....took
a couple of weeks on RFC.

noremf(George)

Fellow RFC members:

I am opening this thread to see if there is any interest in some testing I am getting ready to do relative to Paco’s Acu’Rzr and Veral Smiths’s lapping techniques as methods for increasing the accuracy of .22lr.

Please let me know if you think this is worthwhile and if not I will delete the thread. If there are only a couple interested I will email them the results if more then I will keep the thread open and post.

I have thought about this for awhile as well as signing up for a forum but one of the gun writers I am friends with said I ought to do it to pass on the knowledge so here I am for what it is worth. If you guys hurt my feelings I will just take my ball and go home.

I have been shooting competitively since 1968 in almost every shooting discipline you might think about, except 3-gun which I just noticed and am too old to handle, in both .22lr, center fire and black powder with both pistols and rifles, mostly cast loads as well as “store bought” , hand loading mostly but not always except for .22 which obviously have to be store bought. I have won and lost many championships over the years and consider myself an excellent shooter except when there is “money on the bench” and then I become an exceptional shooter and actually have some “luminous” moments which at my age is fairly rare. I am 67 and have been retired for 2yrs.

I bagged formal competitive shooting about 9 years ago when I got farsighted. Don’t mind getting beat fair and square but don’t like going in with a handicap. With the exception of benchrest and 1000yd service rifle shooting at Perry all my weapons and those I have access to are what I call stock. They all have practical accuracy and any that I could not hit with I got rid off. Some of em are real tackdrivers. Had a bunch of guns follow me home over the years which my wife got PO’d about but what the heck. she bought some furniture that I thought was ugly anyway.

I have my own range and anywhere from 6-20 friends, my kids, their kids, my grandkids, their grandkids, their boyfriends, their girlfriends etc. shoot almost every weekend except between mid June through mid September when it gets just too hot here in central Alabama. I can shoot from inside or outside with good benches either way. We are a “clannish” bunch though.

The age range is from 5 to 77 with 5 (62-71) who shot and won competitively in different disciplines for about 150 years of total experience and some local farmers that are really really good with “old betsy” and would definitely do well in competition. We also have one guy who can’t hit a 55 gallon drum 10 times in a row even if he was inside it but he really enjoys blasting away with his High Standard. Cheeky bugger too. Never brings his own ammo. The old farts kind of sit around and tell each other and the grandkids lies about the magnificent groups or scores we shot “back when”. Amazing how many two mile shots we made on Hummingbirds.

We mostly plink but also have a set of IHMSA .22 lr swingers (only had em for 2 months) and those are turning out to be real crowd pleasers second only to plastic soda bottles filled with different colored Jello. Only one crotchety .22lr benchrest guy with about $10,000 worth of equipment (Custom rail gun, micrometer rear and front rests, custom made leather bags, talcum powder applicator, gloves, digital wind/temperature/humidity meters, boosted 32X Unertl etc) and he gets really bent out of shape if he shoots groups greater than 3 millions of an inch bigger than the bullet. I figure one day he is gonna throw that rail gun in the pond. I haven’t talked to him yet about this project cause the last time he shot here he shot a 5 shot group at 100 yds you could cover with a pencil eraser and stomped around and grumbled for the rest of the day. He is the 77 yr old but in good shape both physically and mentally albeit a bit slow moving and the kids bring his targets back for him. We have the normal cross section of people…... I want to try new things, I am willing to listen to new things and the earth is flat and you ain’t never going to convince me otherwise.

Until last June we did not have high speed internet, REALLY rural, so surfing for stuff like gun forums was just impossible using dial-up. Where I choose to live the local barber has beer in the cooler while you wait and while you are waiting or getting a haircut you get to listen to the crop status, the government sucks, prices suck and my tractor is broke. Really really deep south. Took me almost 5 years before people would talk to me as I am a da&nyankee (down here that is all one word) by birth but a reb by choice and my wife is from Savannah. I love it here and spent 25 years getting here and am never going back to Yankee land. Apologies to any Yankees or Rebs.

Last June we got HSI and I started to surf gun stuff. Really interesting stuff. I chose RFC as my first forum in January 2011 and am plowing through how to communicate, put in pictures etc.

I have read a bunch of articles, not just on RFC but other sites, about Paco’s Acu’Rzr with the responses ranging from “greatest thing since sex” to “didn’t do squat for my gun and a real waste of money…don’t even make good boat anchors!” His tools are for .22lr only and SAFELY size the .22 base to a variety of diameters as also changes the nose of the .22lr.

I happen to know Paco. I also know Veral Smith of cast bullet (LBT) fame for more years than I care to remember and Veral is probably the most knowledgeable cast bullet authority left around today in a technology that is fun, cost effective and very valuable to know but sliding “into the mists”. He is on a website called Lead Bullets Technology if you are interested. I won’t get into that in this forum. A little short fused but will really help you if are patient. He and Paco have known each other for years.

I have cast everything from .22 for 220 Swifts to .50 for 50x110 Sharps and in almost every respect bettered or equaled the performance of the jacketed bullets with proper tailored hand loads but that is another subject not suited to this forum. Veral also is a really big proponent of lapping barrels and over the years has developed probably the best abrasive’s for that regardless of the caliber plus how to do it. Veral and Paco are both old farts like me but they know a ton of stuff about lead and lead alloy bullets.

I give you their and my experience for reference. They are like “Felix and Oscar” cause they each feel their process is the best way to achieve the most accurate results. Paco with his Acu’Rzr and Veral with lapping. Of course I myself am like a saint.

IF YOU KNOW EM PLEASE DON'T SEND EM A COPY OF THIS POSTING...I WANT TO STAY ON GOOD TERMS WITH EM...THEY ARE
BOTH GOOD GUYS.

FIRST OFF I DON’T HAVE ANY FORMAL CONNECTION WITH EITHER! I AM USING MY OWN MONEY!

Since I am retired, and have the resources and my wife says I have to stay out in the shed between 0800 and 1700 hrs cause since I retired I am driving her crazy, I decided to do some of the “shooting stuff” I always wanted to do and either did not have the time or the resources before. This is one of 4 or 5 the things I want to do before I get senile.

I have decided to check out the the Acu’Rzr and maybe lapping. I lapped weapons in the past and got good results but I don't have any now that I think will benefit from that. I am awaiting a Phase 4 kit with an extra nose rod that Paco says should duplicate the LBT pistol bullet in shape or close to it. The LBT “shape” is kind of like between the cupped and nasty nose except with a flat nose or a modified Keith bullet if you know who Keith was. Always had a lot of luck with that shape pistol or rifle. I also am awaiting the lapping stuff since when I checked out mine it had solidified or the mice in the shed ate it or whatever.

I plan to test as follows (These are my rules and mine only). See caveat at bottom. I have a variety of ammo and guns either that I personally own or can use from my friends. I would stress that I am not interested in shooting groups that would take bee’s off of flowers and not disturb the petals albeit I will take em if I can get em. I am interested in the comparison of group sizes before and after, feeding issues etc. And before anyone asks, yes I will be testing Remington Golden(everyone seems to say they suck) Bullets. I am not looking for agreement or disagreement unless it is truly constructive….just what happens between the 2 processes with the weapons I have or additional ones I may choose.

I am also not saying the accuracy of one gun over another is because of the brand of the gun or the ammo and as .22lr shooters you guys already know that the .22 is THE MOST SENSITIVE weapon ammo wise that there is. If it wasn’t I don’t think there would be any .22lr forums. The whole idea is that if you can size “bulk” bullets and get closer to target grade stuff you can practice more and save the expensive stuff for the matches or the “put the money on the bench pilgrim” stuff.

Test weapons.

ALL OF THESE WEAPONS ARE STOCK—NO ACCURACY ENHANCEMENTS EXCEPT SCOPES AND THE HENRY GB
VERNIER TANG SIGHT.

Ruger Single Six-.Convertible 6” barrel-22lr cylinder only. Read lots of stuff about it being set up for the .22 Mag which makes the .22lr less accurate. This will be test 1.

Browning Buck Mark with 5” barrel and 7” barrel. Will mount each barrel and test.

Ruger MK III standard 5.5”.

Anschutz Exemplar 10”—this thing shoots everything great but just want to screw around with it.

Heritage .22lr 6/5” barrel adjustable sights

A really ooooooold LLAMA .22lr. It belongs to one of my friends. Since he is going to help we threw that one in.

Henry Golden Boy .22lr with a vernier tang sight. ( have some stuff on that on the forum)

Ruger 10/22-factory sights

Ruger 10/22-4X Scope

MAU/MAS 45-military (mauser style) iron sights with the peep.

Marlin 39-3x9 scope

CZ 452-6x24scope

Win 69A-original peep iron sights.

I also have an Anschutz Model 1903 Small Bore Match with Anschutz Diopter sights and a return to zero mounts (they really work) with a 32X scope on it that I may test with formed rounds but not even consider lapping. Same for the Exemplar.

I know this rifle (1903) shoots better than I do cause my benchrest buddy shoots way better groups with it, although when he picks it up you would think it was covered in slime.

All the guns have a least a brick through em so I figure they are broken in.

Might end up with more when the farmers check in but don’t know. I don’t plan on doing all the testing myself but will if comes to that. 4 shooters said they would be glad to help if I make sure there is a radio, supply the ammo, have cold soft drinks in the shed refridge and the shed is warm if they have to shoot from there. Cheeky buggers! I can shoot from 3 benches in the shed where we cut holes in the block walls a few years back and installed hinged plywood covers. Can warm up the shed with a torpedo kerosene heater but in the summer can’t cool it off. The 4 are experienced and consistent shooters and again I am not interested in .000000001” groups. If get one surely two things will happen. 1. There will be absolutely no one there to see (should be a Murphy’s law) it and 2. I will get a heart attack and die and test will end.

We will fire 3 “fouling” shots for each ammo brand then 3 five round groups with unsized ammo, haven’t decided on how many brands right now but at least 5 different bulk rounds including the Remmington No target ammo because from what I read the majority of people say the target stuff is the least affected with Paco’s tool and I don’t want to spend the money. Gonna try for $20 and under per brick.

We then will fire 3 five round groups with 2 different sized bullets for the same ammo one after the other. We will then have 6 five round groups with the same ammo fired one after the other in the same conditions. 3 groups unsized and 3 groups each of the sized .
Even though I know what I mean when I read it it is still a might confusing. The best groups will be reported plus any comments we decide are pertinent.

Still pondering what sizing I am going to do cause it will expand the test quite a bit also what nose punch. Messing with all of them makes for lots of groups. Right now I figure I am gonna start with .225 and if the groups get better stop right there if not go to .224 etc.
Same criteria for feeding and loading. For my cast bullets I mostly get the best groups sized .001 greater than the groove size. If they won’t load or feed or eject reliably I will go down a size. If that does not work I will bag the sizing test gun and report the failure.

Won’t know for sure how many different combinations I will end up with until I start the test. I am doing this for accuracy so I will use the cupped nose and the LBT nose and see what is what. If either one craps out consistently I will bag that one and try something else later. I don’t hunt small game much but the “farmer” guys and my older grandkids say that on squirrels, rabbits, armadillo’s and blackbirds they are just as dead with solids if hit right than hollow points. Accuracy is key to them. If they want to mess around with the other nose shapes they can have at.

We will not shoot with a cross wind greater than 5 MPH. If a flyer is called we will shoot another round, if not called we eat the hit.

When I size and form I or we will visually look at the bullets. If any look funky we will throw em in the “grandkids” box. I am gonna put on some of those “sliding thingees” that have a set screw on the side of em (can’t think of the name right now) on the rods so they only go so far. I told PACO he ought to have those so you don’t over or underbash the rods. Like talking to my wife! Good thing she won’t see this.

I/we will score as follows: Again my rules since it is my test. I have tested ammo for many years this way or close to it and am comfortable with it.

I/we will shoot all weapons at a Pig target made of ¾” plywood for the .22lr full size, not 1/5 size, IHMSA pistol discipline at 50 yards. I can shoot better with 3D (or solid) targets than I can with 2D (or flat targets). I have posted some stuff about 2D vs 3D on the forum. No paper bullseye targets! AGAIN MY PREFERENCE.

For scopes I will have a 1” dot pasted on the center of the pig or use a paper targe....shooters choice.

All pistol testing off bags or Creedmore….shooters choice and rifles off bags. 2 minutes for 5 rounds. 10 minutes between strings either because I/we have to go to the bathroom or smoke a cigarette or maybe cause there is really good song on the radio or (at our age) the eyes water. In any case the walking to and fro to score the targets should take care of any large barrel heat variations.

If the weather or wind changes dramatically between the unsized and sized strings we will junk the test and start over another day. Weather is pretty consistent hour to hour here.

We will then measure the groups on the plywood target, center to center, using a dial caliber. After that I lay a 1/8” piece of Acetate cut to the silhouette shape, in this case the pig, on top of the target, record the XY of the rounds with erasable markers in different colors for the groups and when done take that acetate and post the results to my laptop against a scale drawing of the Pig via an autocad program. The acetate is scribed for ½” by ½” squares. Wonderful things computers. I got about a ton of paper targets with holes in em from way back when that would take me forever to look at again even if the critters that live in the shed didn’t chew em up. I used to staple paper targets then rip em off and save em. Only good thing about tons of paper targets is when you are lying about all the great groups or shots you made no one wants to plow through all the old targets to prove you a liar.

I tape over the shots made for each string, repaint the target if needed and repeat the process until the test for that ammo is complete. Will go to the next ammo etc. depending on conditions and time of day and whether or not I feel like it or my wife gets on me. Will repeat for next weapon, ammo or wherever stage I am at. I am doing this for fun and if I get out of the mood or my grandkids (most of em are here every weekday after school) want to do something I will bag it for the day.

I will not clean barrels between ammo testing. Will check and clean action, extractors etc. if needed. I am not a “clean barrel” guy after every session anyway. I normally only clean my barrels once a year when it gets to hot to shoot and in the case of the target grade rifles only when accuracy goes in the tank albeit I do toothbrush the action after every shoot. I never use a brush unless the accuracy really goes to hell and then only as a last resort. I have also posted my opinion about cleaning on the website.

I figure the really tough part will be after we get done with the sizing tests. To lap or not to lap will be on an opinion/feel basis and when you put a bunch of “mature” shooters together you have enough trouble agreeing on what day it is let alone if you ought to screw with the barrel. On my weapons I can make the call but on theirs if they don’t want to lap later they won’t.

Again let me know via the forum if you are interested and I will post or not post based on that…I am gonna do it anyway for me but I don’t want to go through all the hassle of formally recording group sizes, pictures etc etc for presentation(s) if only me and a few other guys on the site are interested. I rather just email them the stuff.

I figure two or three months depending on weather and my dedication which sometimes is dependant on if I can get up in the morning and move around OK.

I will give it my best shot but if other “real stuff” needs to be done it will go to the bottom of the list.

noremf(George)
1/28/2011

“WKGK wants to make it clear that the editorials presented by noremf do not represent either this station or it’s sponsors……”

Some of this has changed as we got into the actual testing but if you don't get the drift you ain't gonna understand it
anyhoo.

Just finished the Ruger Single Six Convertible and posted on RFC....will now attempt to post the results here.

[noremf]

First Picture posting...hope it goes well. This is a test of a Ruger Single Six for the above
subject.

noremf(George)

[Boomer]

Thanks George!

I found your emails interesting & knew it would appeal to the Saturday plinker in all of us.

**WARNING** IHMSA rules state that any 22LR ammo used in a match must be "as manufactured".

So while this press would be great to amaze your friends with bulk ammo you may not use it in a match where you will be turning in a score card.

[noremf]

I know (shot IHMSA from 75 or so to 03) that but.....

If I was still shooting and could practice with bulk ammo that gave me results close to the "match" stuff
I would practice with the bulk and use the match stuff for the matches. I don't know about you but
I figure I would be able to practice more cause it was cheaper. I could envision catching a sale of
the Fed 550's--bought my brick for testing for right on $11 not including tax at WalleyWorld, sizing em
up on a rainy day or in the evening while watching TV and then using those for practice.

I shot a 32x40 on the swingers with the resized bulk Federal 550's (4 different lot #)and a 34x40 with Lapua's. I am 67
and my eyes aren't that great anymore and I need a stick or a grandson to get up out of the Creedmore position or
I have to crawl to the bench to get up.

I shot a 37x40 with those out of the box wildcats....found 3 more bricks at Bass Pro Shops with the same lot number,
bought em, locked em up in a .50 military ammo can so my grandkids won't shoot em and am gonna use
em for "put the money" on the bench hustling. No one would believe that Wildcats are gonna do
that. Bought 3 other boxes of wildcats...different lot numbers and the best group we got, 3 guys, was
4"+ at 50.

I really try not to editorialize on the two forums I am on but I think maybe the Ruger Single Six might
getting a bad rap with the perception that .22lrs don't shoot good cause the weapon is tailored to
the .22 mag. It is the major reason we chose it for the first test.

I know each weapon is discrete but I just got a feeling!

noremf(George)

[schoolbus]

Very interesting post George. I'm looking forward to seeing more.
Gordon

[noremf]

To Schoolbus,

Sorry about the Ruger Single Six pictures. I went to "2 accross" and forgot to reload em.
Reloaded now.

Have three other tests we did and am posting now.










We have 16 more to go. I will post as we finish em.

[Oldfart]

VERY interesting