Reflex Sight

[i26963]

Here is the rule as printed in the Sept. issue of the IHMSA News. I understood that they would not be used for standing, but evidently they are.

“To allow reflex sights for production, standing, and revolver guns across the board for Seniors (age 60 and over) for a one year trial period starting January 1, 2018. The weight limit of all guns affected by this addendum will be increased by 4 ounces per gun.”

MC

[i26963]

The excerpt quote in red was from an email document that Jim sent to about 30 shooters in late July 2017. He supplied a word document that include some history of optics and his reasons for submission. The proposal he submitted to the board was dated February 2017. The parenthesis was included in Jim's original proposal. This was what the proposal was when discussed in July. Jim's reference that "My research shows that most all of these sights are under 4 ounces" is a clear indication that scope body style optics were never meant to be included.

While some people want to think it includes all ''red dot, non-magnifying optics,1x scopes, or any variation of them, etc" it does not. Not to be harsh, but what people (even the originator) want it to now include is irrelevant to this conversation. Practical applications of the proposal, if honored at all, must be in accordance with it's proposed wording and the wording published in the Sept issue of the IHMSA News.

Exactly, Rich!
This thing is morphing!
All this could have been avoided if it had been proposed and voted on according to bylaws, and not rushed without member notification and comment period.
I have the utmost respect for Jim Fields, but with all due respect, if he wants to shoot his P and R, shoot it in PH, or UAS.
I’m tired of hearing the excuse that this is just a trial period! As we are seeing now, this rule is morphing already, by adding what people’s intentions were, not sticking to what was voted on.
Should have put a 4 oz. weight limit on the sight itself, not adding 4 oz. to the P gun weight limit.
Melvin

[i26963]

I apologize for being snide, but I am enjoying this subject very much ! Proverbial "can of worms" - fixing something that was not broken !

Oh, what a tangled web we weave! ;)
MC

[StandingTall]

Not to keep poking the bear but:

https://www.shootingillustrated.com/art ... ot-optics/

From the article:
"Basically, there are two types of reflex sights: One is very compact and the beam is exposed. The other type is tube shaped, looks like an abbreviated riflescope and its beam is contained."

"Rules Addendum:
To allow reflex sights for production, standing, and revolver
guns across the board for Seniors (age 60 and over) for a one
year trial period starting January 1, 2018. The weight limit of all
guns affected by this addendum will be increased by 4 ounces per
gun."

Whether or not I agree with this new ruling is beside my point. Seems to me like if they want to disallow one type of reflex sight, they need to be specific. Something like "EXPOSED (OPEN) REFLEX SIGHTS ONLY" or "NO TUBE TYPE (CLOSED) REFLEX SIGHTS". As it stands now, without this delineation, any type of reflex sight is allowed as long as you do not exceed total weight limit....and arguing about it is pointless.

[contender1121]

Now I'm really getting confused. There are two keywords at the beginning of the rule: "To allow". Where in this rule does it say that you MUST do this? That, if you are over 60 and shooting production then you MUST stick a reflector sight on your gun whether you like it or not? It is being offered as an option to be used by those that think it will improve their ability to keep shooting. If you are over 60 and can see like the proverbial eagle with open sights and are slamming steel like crazy then, by all means, continue to do so. I'm originally from Missouri and someone is going to have to show me that reflector sights have a distinct advantage over open sights. There is no magnification, the wiggles and shakes, the heartbeat and breath control, the heat and sweat and gnats and wind and cold, the guy next to you shooting a hand cannon are all there for both sight systems.
And, don't forget that for those that are so adamantly opposed to this rule, you will have the opportunity at some point to rescind it.

Given: rule allows reflex sights
Given: reflex sights generate red dots
Given: holographic sights and prismatic sights are not allowed as they have reticles, not red dots
Given: there are two "types" of red dot sights: open and closed
Ergo: all red dot sights are allowed for Production class so long as all other class requirements are met.

[i26963]

Now I'm really getting confused. There are two keywords at the beginning of the rule: "To allow". Where in this rule does it say that you MUST do this? That, if you are over 60 and shooting production then you MUST stick a reflector sight on your gun whether you like it or not? It is being offered as an option to be used by those that think it will improve their ability to keep shooting. If you are over 60 and can see like the proverbial eagle with open sights and are slamming steel like crazy then, by all means, continue to do so. I'm originally from Missouri and someone is going to have to show me that reflector sights have a distinct advantage over open sights. There is no magnification, the wiggles and shakes, the heartbeat and breath control, the heat and sweat and gnats and wind and cold, the guy next to you shooting a hand cannon are all there for both sight systems.
And, don't forget that for those that are so adamantly opposed to this rule, you will have the opportunity at some point to rescind it.

Given: rule allows reflex sights
Given: reflex sights generate red dots
Given: holographic sights and prismatic sights are not allowed as they have reticles, not red dots
Given: there are two "types" of red dot sights: open and closed
Ergo: all red dot sights are allowed for Production class so long as all other class requirements are met.

My goodness, the distinct advantage is you don’t have to align the front and rear sights! One of the most important aspects!
A shooter can already shoot optic sights in UAS and PH. Now, we are amending the rule based on what someone’s intentions were. The vote was on a written proposal, however illegal, and now we are getting addendums. You don’t get a chance to say later that “oh, I really intended this or that”.
Re: your comment in red
Don’t be too sure. The vote on the proposal at the World Championships went against the bylaws,and it should have been tabled, and given the comment period that is called for.
In my opinion, Jim and the board have done more harm to the organization than any perceived gain in entries.this proposal should be rescinded and if Jim wants to propose it again, it should be handled by the bylaws.
Oh, by the way, I am 69 and the weakness in my shooting eye is so bad, they had to add prism to my prescription to keep me from seeing double. I still shoot iron sights, and if I do want to switch to optic sights, I will shoot UAS. I would not bastardize the P, R class by using an optic and calling it Production.
As a member of IHMSA since 1981,my feelings are strong on this.
Melvin

[contender1121]

Now I'm really getting confused. There are two keywords at the beginning of the rule: "To allow". Where in this rule does it say that you MUST do this? That, if you are over 60 and shooting production then you MUST stick a reflector sight on your gun whether you like it or not? It is being offered as an option to be used by those that think it will improve their ability to keep shooting. If you are over 60 and can see like the proverbial eagle with open sights and are slamming steel like crazy then, by all means, continue to do so. I'm originally from Missouri and someone is going to have to show me that reflector sights have a distinct advantage over open sights. There is no magnification, the wiggles and shakes, the heartbeat and breath control, the heat and sweat and gnats and wind and cold, the guy next to you shooting a hand cannon are all there for both sight systems.
And, don't forget that for those that are so adamantly opposed to this rule, you will have the opportunity at some point to rescind it.

Given: rule allows reflex sights
Given: reflex sights generate red dots
Given: holographic sights and prismatic sights are not allowed as they have reticles, not red dots
Given: there are two "types" of red dot sights: open and closed
Ergo: all red dot sights are allowed for Production class so long as all other class requirements are met.

My goodness, the distinct advantage is you don’t have to align the front and rear sights! One of the most important aspects!
A shooter can already shoot optic sights in UAS and PH. Now, we are amending the rule based on what someone’s intentions were. The vote was on a written proposal, however illegal, and now we are getting addendums. You don’t get a chance to say later that “oh, I really intended this or that”.
Re: your comment in red
Don’t be too sure. The vote on the proposal at the World Championships went against the bylaws,and it should have been tabled, and given the comment period that is called for.
In my opinion, Jim and the board have done more harm to the organization than any perceived gain in entries.this proposal should be rescinded and if Jim wants to propose it again, it should be handled by the bylaws.
Oh, by the way, I am 69 and the weakness in my shooting eye is so bad, they had to add prism to my prescription to keep me from seeing double. I still shoot iron sights, and if I do want to switch to optic sights, I will shoot UAS. I would not bastardize the P, R class by using an optic and calling it Production.
As a member of IHMSA since 1981,my feelings are strong on this.
Melvin

I certainly respect your strong feelings on the issue Melvin. But I repeat, no one is FORCING you to do anything. In reading thru your posts it would seem that you have a bigger issue with how this ruling came to be rather than the rule itself.
If this is not the case then I surely do apologize. We can agree to disagree and go have fun.

[braud357]

Concerning the above quote - " nobody is forcing anyone to do this" may I remind you that anyone 60+ can use reflex sights in Production, Revolver, and Standing. Even if their eyesight is exceptional ! As a person who has shot A LOT with red-dot sights and other optics - you will never convince me that this proposal will "level the playing field". As with all competitive endeavor - if someone can take advantage of this change - they may very well do so. My opinion on this stands, and I side with Melvin on this. If a shooter can no longer see iron sights well enough to be competitive (personally guilty !) we already have categories for such shooters (UAS and PH). These are the categories that I now concentrate on. These categories already enable shooters to compete with compromised or diminished eyesight ! And I, like Melvin - do not appreciate how this was voted on and adopted without following the bylaws.

[260 Striker]

I suspect there was good intention for this proposal but I would like to know why "reflex" sights were singled out. I am not the well accomplished shooter like many other members but I have never seen a reflex sight nor handled one. I have several dot type sights and those were the more economical (read cheap) types and I didn't think they were accurate enough for silhouette use. Anyway, why was reflex selected in the first place? I believe that limits those sights to just specific manufacturers. By the way, Melvin and others are correct, this proposal did not follow the bylaws so I guess the bylaws only apply to certain members. Sorry but the system is breaking down.

[contender1121]

Concerning the above quote - " nobody is forcing anyone to do this" may I remind you that anyone 60+ can use reflex sights in Production, Revolver, and Standing. Even if their eyesight is exceptional ! As a person who has shot A LOT with red-dot sights and other optics - you will never convince me that this proposal will "level the playing field". As with all competitive endeavor - if someone can take advantage of this change - they may very well do so. My opinion on this stands, and I side with Melvin on this. If a shooter can no longer see iron sights well enough to be competitive (personally guilty !) we already have categories for such shooters (UAS and PH). These are the categories that I now concentrate on. These categories already enable shooters to compete with compromised or diminished eyesight ! And I, like Melvin - do not appreciate how this was voted on and adopted without following the bylaws.

Let's see, one comment has been made that the red dot sight has a leg up by not having to align the front and rear sights. Valid point. Is that it? Is that the only advantage? Everything else has been red-ass about the way the ruling was handled, as attested to in your very last sentence.
You've reminded me that "anyone 60+ can use reflex sights in Production, Revolver, and Standing. Even if their eyesight is exceptional!" I'm fully aware of that since that has been the discussion point for 4 pages now. Exceptional eyesight or blind as a bat, it makes no difference since you have the choice to use one or not. "As a person who has shot A LOT with red-dot sights and other optics - you will never convince me that this proposal will "level the playing field". As someone with longtime experience with usage of red-dot sights, would I be correct that you have amassed a lot of knowledge as to their advantages over open sights? I, for one, would be very appreciative if you would share that knowledge. I too have shot with red dot sights going back to the late 80s. Personally, I cannot find any advantage. Cataract surgery has improved my overall eyesight but not to the point of being able to focus on the front sight and target together as required with open sights. That is an age thing that nothing can fix. Thus I'm testing the red dot again at this point in my life and the results so far have been positive. I am also fully aware that I can shoot my TC with red dot sight in PH and UAS. If allowed, as I am now, I will also shoot it in Production since it gives me yet another way to shoot. Is that a bad thing? Isn't shooting more steel what it's all about? I'm not an old curmudgeon whose mind cannot be changed. If I can be convinced that a red dot sight has a distinct advantage then I will quit using them and vote against their usage beyond the trial period. I for one do not want to be someone that is accused of taking an unfair advantage. Are the respondents here of the opinion that just because an over-60 person is using an RDS that they will never miss another target stemming from the usage of that device?!
So lay it on me shooters, what are the advantages of red dot sights that make them unfair? Convince me and I will come toward the light.