Match entry requirement for Championship matches

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braud357
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Re: Match entry requirement for Championship matches

Post by braud357 »

gibar wrote:One of the intents of this rule was to try to prevent sandbaggers at championship matches. Did not always work.

At the Fartville Internationals there was an Ohio shooter who won 6 or 7 classes by virtue of one target short of a double breakout. He had only shot at one match the prior year.

With the current lack of matches, eliminating this rule should happen - but be careful what you wish for.
Careful of what ?? At this point, we can ill afford to turn away ANY entries ! I have been shooting since 1980, and personally have never experienced what you describe. I am not saying that it could not happen, but who would go to that much trouble to win a class award. If he was trying to win a category championship - perhaps, but the breakout rule would take care of that.
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Re: Match entry requirement for Championship matches

Post by 35isit »

braud357 wrote:
gibar wrote:One of the intents of this rule was to try to prevent sandbaggers at championship matches. Did not always work.

At the Fartville Internationals there was an Ohio shooter who won 6 or 7 classes by virtue of one target short of a double breakout. He had only shot at one match the prior year.

With the current lack of matches, eliminating this rule should happen - but be careful what you wish for.
Careful of what ?? At this point, we can ill afford to turn away ANY entries ! I have been shooting since 1980, and personally have never experienced what you describe. I am not saying that it could not happen, but who would go to that much trouble to win a class award. If he was trying to win a category championship - perhaps, but the breakout rule would take care of that.
In Region II we had a shooter who would do the same thing as Gibar was talking about. We bided our time and took his cards at a regional and put him in the classes he belonged. He in fact wound up in a shoot off in his now new class and won the shoot off. Local, State and Regional Directors have to have the stones to take care of sandbaggers. My personal feeling is the rule again was about money and a few high in class shooters. They either supported IHMSA or got out. Many in fact got out, that may be why we are where we are today. If not forced to shoot "entries" to be eligible for championship matches they may attend a few local matches a year if close enough. No one especially likes to be forced to do anything.
Greg
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Re: Match entry requirement for Championship matches

Post by braud357 »

I am looking at this from both a practical AND economical standpoint. Unless something changes, next year I will be looking at probably an expense of $200 - $250 PER MATCH to shoot big bore (gas, lodging, entry fees, food, etc.). I simply cannot justify that on a monthly basis. Add this to the fact that I do not have a range to practice at, and - there you have it , folks ! If I am in International class, and want to shoot at the regionals or Internationals, who will I be hurting ? I am certain that there are other members with the same problem as I !
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Re: Match entry requirement for Championship matches

Post by high standard 40 »

Greg,
How long ago was this sandbagging incident you refer to? IHMSA has a rule to address the sandbag shooter, at least to some extent.

Section IV A 9

Based on any factual, sufficient evidence, any National/ Regional/ State/ Match Director, or member of the executive Committee shall have the authority to reclassify any competitor into any IHMSA class according to "known ability" at any time before, during, or after a match.
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Re: Match entry requirement for Championship matches

Post by 260 Striker »

Years ago our club, and I'm sure many other clubs, used to award prize money based upon the number of entries in each class. A person could actually make money shooting silhouettes in the 80s and early 90s. When the prize money went away so did some of those shooters. Some of those shooters probably gamed the system (sandbagged) to win prize money. I suspected one shooter when I was MD but that was a hard thing to prove since I had no way of knowing his "known ability". Anyway, now that we are just shooting for bragging rights, I don't think shooters would sandbag as in the good old days. I know our club doesn't even require a second signature on scorecards now to verify scores. We operate strictly on the honor system. If a person wants to cheat they are only hurting themselves. Back to the point! As long as a person is classified in each class they would like to shoot at any championship match, who should really care how many entries they have shot in the previous year. If we can't trust each other, then we are doomed anyway. Silhouette shooting is still fun to me after 30+ years and if someone has to cheat to beat me (and they don't) I'm still there having the same fun I did years ago. Times have definitely changed, ranges are gone and I agree with Philip that we need to do everything possible to retain shooters and to encourage them to attend championship matches. We are forgetting this is a game and we are supposed to be "enjoying" ourselves.
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Re: Match entry requirement for Championship matches

Post by 35isit »

high standard 40 wrote:Greg,
How long ago was this sandbagging incident you refer to? IHMSA has a rule to address the sandbag shooter, at least to some extent.

Section IV A 9

Based on any factual, sufficient evidence, any National/ Regional/ State/ Match Director, or member of the executive Committee shall have the authority to reclassify any competitor into any IHMSA class according to "known ability" at any time before, during, or after a match.
Charlie it was 1992. I know that was a long time ago. I don't care about sandbaggers. If it keeps you shooting come on up and shoot. Before I say what I'm about to remember this, I'm for the rule going away for those shooters that don't have a range. I will give you some perspective though.

David Bemis among all the other match directors work tirelessly to put on a match. I don't want to see the demise of the local match. We have to keep our numbers up to appease the our club much like Jackson did. If it gets down to so few shooters showing up that the AR crowd could be blasting ammo we could be extinct also. We have to have about 10-15 per month show up. Heck we even count target setters sometimes. I feel your pain and know something must be done. I just don't know what it is. Again come to my place anytime as far as I know you have your entries. Last year at the ECC the shooters got all their entries in for everything as long as they shot 2 bigbore 2 smallbore and 2 field pistol. We even had a few get classified in a new category. As far as I know there are only 3 champioship matches state regional and international. The ECC doesn't apply to those.
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Re: Match entry requirement for Championship matches

Post by ole95 »

Not trying to high jack this thread but after Phillip and Greg clear up the grayness of this rule for me I fully understand why it need to be removed or modified
I like a lot of others don’t have the benefit of getting to shoot local monthly matches once or twice a month. With the closes SB match 4 to 5 hrs. away and after this year the closes BB range 6 to 7 hrs. Away plus a job that involves a lot of weekends next year I will be lucky to make 2 or 3 “regular” matches. My wife and I have discussed going to multiple day state, regional and “coast” championships being a better value for ower traveling buck. Every year it will be harder for me to have 2 SB and 2 BB and 2 FP and 2 air pistol (not sure about needing 2 FS and HS) all of which I have classifications in multiple guns along with the fact that these “championship” match don’t count in that total. I would think with the decline in numbers at these matches any “championship” match director should/would(speaking mainly about INT) be happy to get any In good standing IHMSA member with minable requirements to attend. And anyone that can’t handle the additional competitions well I’ll just leave it at that!
Speaking of “sandbaggers”
Anyone that followed my scores at the few State, regional and even the WCC would think that I was sandbagging to win (whatever it is that you win for winning SB “AA” whatever) because I have muliti ML and JC in all of them. When in fact it’s because I’m new to the sport, and started at the bottom and get to make just a few matches but in between I work hard at getting better along with getting better “equipment” so when I do get to shoot a match I see the fruits of my labor but others could see it as “sandbagging”!!!! .
90% of the shooters you talk to say they only compete against them self and enjoy a day with friends if that is truly the case then why would it matter if Joe blow who hasn’t shot in a match in 2 years comes in and beats you?
And no I’m not saying open the door for any Joe blow to shoot at the INT or other “championship“ matches. But I agree that this rules needs to be revisited. I would think that anyone that has shot in A match including a “championship” match in the last year or so and is classified with the gun/s they plan to shoot and in good standing with IHMSA should be able to shoot the INT.
Like a lot of other things I’m learning about IHMSA that were needed back when IHMSA was the hottest game going

I pay my $50, I shoot what matches I can, I’ve never been ask to leave a IHMSA match and yes I have been corrected on things I do/did wrong but I’ve also seen people corrected for the same thing that have been shooting for years, I’m classed in any gun I plan to shoot, I have shot in a match or two in the last couple of years. In my eyes that is all I should need to shoot at the INT a match that from what I’m being told is a hole their throwing my yearly dues into.
I’m classified in Air pistol Production and UAS I’m “AA” in both I have a total of 3 entries in air pistol
But because two of those were at a State “championship” if I read the rule right I cannot shoot ether@ the INT! Because I could be a “sandbagger” and beat guys that have been shooting air pistol matches 12 months a year for years. Yep good thing for those guys that that rules in place LOL :-? =)) =)) =))
jrs
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Re: Match entry requirement for Championship matches

Post by high standard 40 »

So all of this having been said,...............

is there anyone going to the Internationals who can see to it that this subject will be addressed at the annual meeting?
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Re: Match entry requirement for Championship matches

Post by ole95 »

Sorry not me [-(
I feel that any proposed rules change should come from someone who's been here not someone that just got here
Nobody that has been doing something the same way sense before the turn of the century is going to listen to someone that just got off the turnip wagon #-o
I will support but not initiated **==
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Re: Match entry requirement for Championship matches

Post by LOCKHART »

We had a guy at our range in New Braunfels, Texas and I think he still a member of our
club. He had like a 4 digit IHMSA number, but he never competed in any of our club matches
until right before State and then he would come out, shoot one or two entries, and thats the
last you would see of him until State match. He was in the lower classifications but would shoot
the class above his top score and would usually win. To me, this was pretty chickenchitt, but
thats what he would do. If he is reading this, he will know i'm talkin bout him. I'm sure that this
rule was meant for people like him, but it never stopped his sandbagging because he would just
lay out a year, and then come back.
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