Unlimited Guns & Stock Configuration Con't

[Shoot2Thrill]

There has been much discussion on this topic recently and is appreciated. I wanted to include some clarifications and additions to the topic. This may come off as I am calling out Region 4, but the stocks in question to my knowledge are not used in Region 3. My home region is where I do most of my shooting like you. I travel to Michigan and Ohio and see flop shooters. I have yet to see a concaved stock parallel to the barrel.

1. The topic is not a rule change proposal; it is a rule enforcement.

2. This topic is not about high rise mounts, taco hoods, pachmayr grips, etc. This topic is specific to shaping a stock to contour body anatomy.

3. Some discussion suggests that we will drive away membership by nitpicking rules. The other side of the argument is what if we lose membership because we are too weak to enforce our own rules.

4. Matches - If illegal equipment is being used at local matches, then how will others around the country know about it? At the match we run, I could use the banana forend on my contender for flop and probably wouldn't get called out on it by anyone else (the NRA Lever Gun shooters ask if we’re ok as we flop). That doesn't make it right. I know it contours to my and April's arm and won't use it for that reason. However, it would be legal if it wasn't locked into the arm or shot from creedmore, but I'm getting off topic.

The location of the WC also applies here. The location of the WC is a big factor in who attends. If Tusco hosted the WC again, I bet there would be a big increase in Region 2 & 3 attendance. At the same time, the region 4 & 5 numbers would be down. Hence, the amount of these stocks would be much less if any in attendance. If LA hosted again, then the western regions will be well represented and probably not so much for the central and eastern part of the country. If it were not for OKCGC and Jim Fields, I am not sure if we would be having WCs. IHMSA owes them many thanks. We are now in a situation where the last five WC have been held in the same location. Oklahoma is well represented at the WC. However, I don't believe Oklahoma was well represented at the last WC in LA. Hence, those stocks were not on the firing line. I am not calling anybody out. I'm just being honest. Correct me if I am wrong because I was not there.

Many of the stocks being discussed are from Region 4. Again, I'm just being honest. With having the WC in one location, there have been many of these stocks built recently. One person does something that works better, and the next guy wants to do it too. If that is not the reason, then please tell me what is. What is the reason to concave a stock on the underside?

I applaud Jim Fields for finding a knowledgeable person to complete the gun check this year. Randy Tidwell is now a friend of mine. At that time though, he was not an IHMSA member. He is now though! In short, we had a non-member checking guns. Jim wants everyone to shoot, and the workload was taken off of directors and officers. It is very much appreciated; I’m sure. Speaking of checking guns, how many match directors check guns at monthly matches? I’m guilting of not doing it either.

5. This topic has been discussed and recognized in the past. It is not a moot point. As early as 1985, the topic of 'funny' forends came up. In 2007, there was discussion about the topic as well. While reading through the 40 years of IHMSA News files, the July 1985 (p.4), March 2007 (p. 8-9), and April 2007 (p. 8) reflect discussions and rulings on this exact topic. I urge you to read these articles.

[aggshooter]

For those following this topic, here's my thoughts on Doug's post, listed as per his bullet points....

1) 100% correct

2) 100% correct

3) 100% correct. All sports have rules, including ours. Nobody likes "Hometown Referees" that look the other way when their favored team or members violate rules. While Match directors may say "yeah, you can do it here, I'm gonna take your entry fee and I don't care..." That really doesn't serve the best interests of shooters who intend to later compete in championship matches.

4) 100% correct. At the LASC World Championships, there were no Region 4 shooters and no flop shooters with contoured stocks. At the ECC in 2015, only Jim Fields and John Anderson attended. I didn't personally check their stocks, I assumed they had flat bottoms. Jim ran over 5,000 straight targets in air pistol with a round air cylinder balanced on his wrist...why would anyone question his stock? But in the last 5 years with the WC always held at OKCGC, it now appears that some shooters are building stocks that fit their anatomy based on their home range....which coincidently hosts the world championship. These stocks would be useless at LASC, and protested at a number of ranges not in Region 4.

5) 100% correct. I will also add the article from Marty Regan in the 1998 Nov-Dec page 3, edition of the IHMSA News. To paraphrase, several board members observed the line at the 1998 International Championship (Oak Ridge, Tenn and Region 2) and observed a number of stock or position violations. "...It was agreed that it would not be made an issue, since the week's shooting was nearly at an end. but, it was obvious that there was a widespread misunderstanding of the rules, or widespread lack of knowledge indifference to the rules."
The article goes on to say that it should be up to the Match Directors to enforce the rules as written. There is an expectation that all IHMSA rules are enforced throughout the organization, regardless of whether you agree with them. It is ironic that this was the same conclusion made by the Board of Directors (vote was 6 out of 7) at the 2020 World Championship.

I don't do Facebook, but I have been forwarded pics of various Unlimited guns. None of the guns photo'd were from the muzzle end and showing the underside contour that is the issue of creating a contour that allows "nesting" the stock on the bent wrist of the shooter. This rule, and the spirit of the rule, remains, and it should be enforced as written.

[260 Striker]

So what is the bottom line here? We all admit that many local clubs allow guns that don't follow the rules and don't even check guns. Will these people who shoot local matches stay away from "formal" matches where guns are checked???? If these funny forends have been in use for years, isn't it time to change the rules to conform to the guns now being used??? Things change over the years and this may be one topic that may need updating. OR will there be one set of lax rules for local matches and one stricter set of rules for championship matches? I would guess there are more guns shot at local matches each year than at the WC.

[braud357]

If we are going to address this matter - we need a concise description of what is, and is not - a legal fore end. And while we are at it, I think that some of the other "shooting aids" described in earlier posts need to be re-evaluated. While they were not the topic of the original discussion, they are "branches on the same tree !!"

[Shoot2Thrill]

The matter has been addressed. The existing rule will be enforced at the 2021 WC. The rule should be and is expected to be enforced by local match directors.

As mentioned before, I am guilty of not doing gun checks at our local match. There is much to do on match day, and our matches are growing. I want to shoot too. If we added gun dimension and weight check, then we who run the match could not shoot nearly as much. I still walk the line to check shooting positions and safety. Just because a stock is concaved, does not mean it is automatically disqualified which leads me to your next point.

We have a description of what is legal and not legal. A stock with a concaved bottom parallel to the barrel that is contouring body anatomy (riding/resting over the wrist) violates the rule. The same stock could be used as long as it is not used in a manner to contour body anatomy (placed on forearm or shot from creedmore). This rule enforcement is truly position sensitive. As mentioned, a banana type forend that has a perpendicular contour to the barrel violates the rule if shot in the prone position by contouring the forearm. The same forend can be shot in creedmore and not violate the rule because it is not contouring body anatomy. I don't believe we can DQ a gun as described until we see it in the shooter's position.

What other shooting aids should we evaluate as well?

[contender1121]

The matter has been addressed. The existing rule will be enforced at the 2021 WC. The rule should be and is expected to be enforced by local match directors.

As mentioned before, I am guilty of not doing gun checks at our local match. There is much to do on match day, and our matches are growing. I want to shoot too. If we added gun dimension and weight check, then we who run the match could not shoot nearly as much. I still walk the line to check shooting positions and safety. Just because a stock is concaved, does not mean it is automatically disqualified which leads me to your next point.

We have a description of what is legal and not legal. A stock with a concaved bottom parallel to the barrel that is contouring body anatomy (riding/resting over the wrist) violates the rule. The same stock could be used as long as it is not used in a manner to contour body anatomy (placed on forearm or shot from creedmore). This rule enforcement is truly position sensitive. As mentioned, a banana type forend that has a perpendicular contour to the barrel violates the rule if shot in the prone position by contouring the forearm. The same forend can be shot in creedmore and not violate the rule because it is not contouring body anatomy. I don't believe we can DQ a gun as described until we see it in the shooter's position.

What other shooting aids should we evaluate as well?

I don't have a dog in this hunt because I've had to give up big bore due to hearing issues and my small bore UAS gun does not have a concave forend. However, I'm still waiting for an explanation as to how the act of placing a seven pound gun (with a concave forend) across one's forearm is any less problematic than placing the same gun across an arched wrist. Unless you are a walking skeleton, the cusps of the concave shape will indent into one's arm and allow the underlying skin to come into contact with the arch. I've not yet seen a gun with a concave shape so pronounced that it would prevent contact. Even if it were too deep, the cusps are providing two widely spaced contact points on the forearm. In either case, such situations would be MORE stable than balancing the forend on an arched wrist because the skin will move with the side-to-side tilt of the gun.
Who out there can truthfully say they got beat out by a competitor, solely because their forearm had a concave shape? Can you prove it?
In my opinion this is a case of trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist. I agree, a rule is a rule but selective enforcement is not going to cut it.
I said in a previous post that the only real cure for the issue is to state that the bottom surface of all forends must be convex with a radius not to exceed (?) inches. Then what are you going to do when a disabled shooter comes along with a jacked up forearm/wrist that matches his convex forend?
So, what's the ultimate cure for this issue? Ban the flop position completely? I have a feeling that would thrill some people.

[braud357]

I have decided to not comment further on this subject - we have far greater concerns to address !

[JACKIE40X40]

Region 4,not supporting LASC:I respectfully post this,I would never hurt anyone’s feelings on purpose!
Oklahoma,has very relaxed gun laws.Ive had concealed carry for years,and we passed a law right after that for open carry.Our governor now has passed constitutional carry.In all the times Fields & I have made matches,we were only stopped once,by a Indiana State Trooper,coming back from Tusco.I will admit you never know what going to happen when you have a truck full of firearms & ammunition? The Trooper Was very nice & never ask,if we had firearms!
I have only missed,1 IHMSA inaugural match since 1982,and that was LASC in 2015!
And the biggest reason was “California gun laws”,y’all have the worst! I Can’t speak for any of the other region 4 shooters,why they decided not to attend. I was honestly to scared to take a chance! You never know if your going to lose all of your firearms & maybe even you vehicles! I was told by 2 California shooters,that flop guns wouldn’t work there! The rams was elevated too high.I have shot My flop guns at rams at Tri city gun club that I elevated back in the 80’s,with no problem. No offense to our California shooters!Jackie.

[260 Striker]

Having a forend that is legal in one category but illegal in another is not a good idea. We need to have consistent rules. Enforcing a rule at the WC that is ignored at local matches is also not a good idea. Are the local MDs trying to tell HQ something here?

[JACKIE40X40]

I agree with 260 Striker. The 2006 official rules for unlimited. No misunderstanding the rules