Fore end rule proposal- board vote

[braud357]

Thank you Doug !

[aggshooter]

Nobody is trying to outlaw prone or the flop. The rule has nothing to do with flop. The 2007 rule and the subsequent clarification doesn't even include the word prone, let alone flop. It also has nothing to do with grips.

Refer back to the article on page 14 of the IHMSA News. At the bottom of the first column, begins a section with the words "Funny Forends" written in bold. The next 6 paragraphs explain pretty much everything, and is reprinted from an article originally printed in a 1985 IHMSA News!!!!

We can't EXACTLY define what is legal/illegal before it is built. If a guy shows up with a 12" wing built onto one side of a TC forend, and the front (muzzle end) is carved to fit into the back of the calf when shooting creedmore, it's illegal from creedmore. Can he shoot it in Unlimited Standing? Probably, as long as he doesn't put a forward grip on it that violates ATF rules. It may look stupid, but there's no rule against it.

On the other hand, various factory forends have been approved by various IHMSA committees for decades, and I respect their decisions. If some dimwit wants to protest the finger grooves on a Browning factory forend, my advice is to take his $10, thank him for the beer money, and tell him to never return.

[braud357]

According to the "clarification" I have received - there are no problems with any of the guns and their usage currently used by shooters in Louisiana. They will still be used and welcomed at our matches. I will , however advise anyone that ever plans to shoot out-of-state that they may experience a different "opinion" concerning the legality of their guns. Even though these guns are "Unlimited", they may encounter a match director with a differing idea of that is, or is not - legal. I will end my comments on this matter with this statement and opinion. I feel that this matter has been poorly handled from the outset. I do not doubt the sincerity of the members of the board, but some of the rhetoric on this forum and others has been condescending and sometimes crude in content. IHMSA is in serious trouble, and we should be directing our energies elsewhere. As far as I am concerned this is a "non-problem" that seems to be specifically aimed at a select few. What amazes me is that many of the guns "supposed" to be in violation have been checked and approved at MANY state, region, and International matches for almost 20 years ! Sorry fellows, but this smells a bit ! IHMSA has been in steady decline in Louisiana for many years, and our future here is in serious doubt. We still are viable due to the actions of one tireless match director ! None of us here have the ability and finances to travel to the big matches anymore, but if I did I would be very leery to do so now because of this rule. To say that I would be angry if I traveled hundreds of miles to a match only to fall victim to this vague, non-specific rule would be a understatement ! Like I have said - we here in IHMSA have far greater problems facing us, and discouraging participation and competition is DEFINITELY not a good idea. I have grown weary of all of the squabbling on this subject, and will continue to promote IHMSA here in Louisiana - unless the "powers-that-be" deem me unworthy to do so ! Philip R. Braud IHMSA # 13794

[Hosspower]

I have stayed away from discussion posts on this forum for a long time because of the political BS that I find myself getting caught up in. Hopefully this makes sense to someone. Others will just keep missing the point.

I don't know what there is to be leery about? vague, non-specific?

Do you have guns that are contoured to fit your body as you shoot them in a match? If yes, that is a violation. If no, then you have nothing to worry about.

I shot in the OKC world championship in 2018? I think. I used an xp-100 with a 5" ken light scope mount for unlimited standing. Anyone who has ever used this setup knows its awkward but can be held away from your body. In talking with other shooters the evening of the day I shot this gun I was told that someone complained about me supporting the gun with my body. I still don't know who complained but I take pride in not doing that...at all...ever with any standing gun. Other shooters were notified of the complaint. I was watched and deemed not supporting the gun but had no idea this was even an issue until hours later. I don't tell shooters to be worried about shooting standing at a big match. Just follow the rules.

As a match director you know how your shooters shoot. I know you don't see everything but you know whats going on. At a local match I saw a shooter get caught for pinching his pants pocket seam between his thumb and grip in the creedmore position for support. He was told about it and was now aware that if he was caught here it could happen at another match big or small. At that point it is the shooters choice to make that violation again.

There is no reason to fear monger shooters about going to a big match. Local match directors should be following the rules and enforce them on their shooters. Seems to me that is why this topic has become an issue. To keep rule benders that are allowed at their local match from getting gigged at a big match.

If I let standing shooters tuck their elbows into their body at our local match its on me if they are rightly DQ'ed at the ECC, world championships or even another local match.

unlimited class isn't a free for all. There is set of rules that should be followed. Including: You can't use a scope or red dot. you have a barrel length limit. You can't use ammo that damages targets. These rules aren't just going to go away because it's called "unlimited' class.

[xp-100]

I know I will be crucified for what I am going to say, but so let it be. One shooter at the WC match this week called some of the firearms "Space Guns" and it was a good description of what it looks like. As far as forearms are concerned, they should be at least no wider or taller then the factory original and not like a slab of wood or cross tie bolted to their firearm which looks like some I have seen this week at the WC. I had no dog in the race but behold I was jumped upon about the forearm rules and what happened at the WC. Some shooters acted smaller then my 2 year old great grandson and needed their diaper changed. They did not act like responsible adults with one coming into the stat house being very violent. The IHMSA shooting sport has gone from a fun sport to nothing more then crap and we all have allowed this to happen especially not following rules that have been set in place for quite some time. Some of these rules may need up dating or re-written but we should act like responsible adults instead of a bunch of crying morons. It also has gone from discussion to "If I don't get my way I will take my toys and go home and you can not come back again". This has become the attitude that has been set in place lately and it is really pitiful the way things are turning out. Read what I posted a few weeks back what I have saw and was involved with in a shooting club a few years back and you will see the similarity in what is happening in our sport today. Our V.P was checking firearms in and weighing firearms and several was turned down for weight or length of out of spec's. I thought he was doing a wonderful job for this has not been done correctly in some time. Allot of shooters were mad at him and one person called for him to resign. He was trying to do things to the book whether he was right?-I can not say. Was he wrong? again I can not say. Was it handled correctly? again I can not say, but I will say he was doing his job. Was things handled incorrectly by our host? In my opinion I very much don't think so. I will say that what was done by our V.P. was in much need of it. My FA was turned down for 2 oz. over weight because of the Pachmyer grips. Well, I did not know this and yes he done the job right. One was turned down for 1/4 too long a barrel, yes this was done right. Many of the one that were turned down needed turned down for they did not conform to our rules and rules are rules no matter how you slice the cake. Whether everyone like what he was doing, again I can not say. All I can say is "Hats off to our V.P. for doing his job".

[64XP-100]

Does anyone have any pictures from the WC of stocks that looked unique but legal and some that looked questionable?

[hardtoseeovergut]

Well confusing a pistol grip or any grip with the term "forend" reminds me of this scene. If someone asks me and I quote the rules verbatim and they still try to massage the rules to gain an advantage, well, this clip says it all.

https://youtu.be/cJX1REQB12o

[i26963]

I know I will be crucified for what I am going to say, but so let it be. One shooter at the WC match this week called some of the firearms "Space Guns" and it was a good description of what it looks like. As far as forearms are concerned, they should be at least no wider or taller then the factory original and not like a slab of wood or cross tie bolted to their firearm which looks like some I have seen this week at the WC. I had no dog in the race but behold I was jumped upon about the forearm rules and what happened at the WC. Some shooters acted smaller then my 2 year old great grandson and needed their diaper changed. They did not act like responsible adults with one coming into the stat house being very violent. The IHMSA shooting sport has gone from a fun sport to nothing more then crap and we all have allowed this to happen especially not following rules that have been set in place for quite some time. Some of these rules may need up dating or re-written but we should act like responsible adults instead of a bunch of crying morons. It also has gone from discussion to "If I don't get my way I will take my toys and go home and you can not come back again". This has become the attitude that has been set in place lately and it is really pitiful the way things are turning out. Read what I posted a few weeks back what I have saw and was involved with in a shooting club a few years back and you will see the similarity in what is happening in our sport today. Our V.P was checking firearms in and weighing firearms and several was turned down for weight or length of out of spec's. I thought he was doing a wonderful job for this has not been done correctly in some time. Allot of shooters were mad at him and one person called for him to resign. He was trying to do things to the book whether he was right?-I can not say. Was he wrong? again I can not say. Was it handled correctly? again I can not say, but I will say he was doing his job. Was things handled incorrectly by our host? In my opinion I very much don't think so. I will say that what was done by our V.P. was in much need of it. My FA was turned down for 2 oz. over weight because of the Pachmyer grips. Well, I did not know this and yes he done the job right. One was turned down for 1/4 too long a barrel, yes this was done right. Many of the one that were turned down needed turned down for they did not conform to our rules and rules are rules no matter how you slice the cake. Whether everyone like what he was doing, again I can not say. All I can say is "Hats off to our V.P. for doing his job".

What in the world transpired!?
I feel,for Rich, as he has endured lots of flak in the past few months.
Melvin

[xp-100]

Total ciaos, I might say.