Unlimited Guns & Stock Configuration

[braud357]

Bruce, this is the point I am trying to make. I do not shoot this fore arm from the creedmoor position, and when shooting flop I do not rest the concave part on my wrist or arm. I grasp it like a rifle. Also, telling shooters that the guns they have been shooting since 2003 at local, state, regional, and International championships have to be modified will serve no good purpose, and will cause IHMSA to lose shooters. Can we afford that, just because of a "perceived" shooting aid. There are many "shooting aids" that are in common use. I know that this applies to the anatomical aspect of the rules, but do we really want to nitpick this ?? With membership of less that 300 members, we can not afford to lose ANY shooters. I know - "rules are rules", perhaps we should be looking at that aspect of this situation as well !! PS: the shooter that I purchased this fore arm from used it a at least 2 Region 2 chanpionships, without a single comment or challenge. Why all of the fuss now ? we should be focused on getting shooters on the line, not running them off !!

[xp-100]

Phillip, the rules are not fingering you out at all. It is looking more less at the flop position. You would have to attend the WCC lately to see just exactly what is going on and happening. As far as a curved forearm, look at the BF's. They are curved, but this is not the issue, the issue lays with the on going flop stock configuration. As said, you need to attend the next WCC and see for your self what is taking place. No, it is not about running shooters off, its about keeping everyone on the same level. If I a fended you by stating to this post, then I am sorry for it. But in the same token, would it be fair for a shooter to rest his firearm on the top of his boot shooting creedmoor position? Would it a fend you for a shooter to use a bi-pod on the end of his forearm? How about a benchrest to shoot all disciplines? What you are saying this may run shooters off as well.

[jmoore]

...But in the same token, would it be fair for a shooter to rest his firearm on the top of his boot shooting creedmoor position? Would it a fend you for a shooter to use a bi-pod on the end of his forearm? How about a benchrest to shoot all disciplines? What you are saying this may run shooters off as well.

Top of leg, top of boot, angle of leg, none of that bothers me, if every one gets to do it. More to the point of the "Unlimited" allowed modifications, it seems to me that the whole point of allowing any action, cartridge (which doesn't damage targets) or position is about advancing the frontiers of "stockless" firearm potential, both from a mechanical and ergonomic perspective. Otherwise we would be stuck in the 1970's. If I was "King" the only big restriction I would place on "Unlimited" handguns would be the ability to also shoot an entry with them Standing "as is". Perhaps a solution would be to rename "Unlimited": "Limited".

BTW, it would seem that bipod shooters already have had concessions to allow them- in PH. Just don't get too good....
At some ranges the shooters get to "benchrest" themselves. To the point where they can change the angle of the table to suit whatever position from whence they shoot. That doesn't bother me either. It's not unlike hunting, where a suitable location is either found or created to make the most of the situation.

I started shooting IHMSA over 20 years ago to improve my chances in the woods, and still see it as a tool for helping in the hunting field. Deer, squirrels, etc. As long as ATF and the game warden don't care, then I'm good with it.
( First deer I ever shot was behind me whilst I was sitting, leaning against tree. Had to shoot with the revolver inverted, when I twisted around to see what was behind me. Not an approved IHMSA shooting position, due to the tree's support, but I like utilizing what helps!)

[braud357]

Phillip, the rules are not fingering you out at all. It is looking more less at the flop position. You would have to attend the WCC lately to see just exactly what is going on and happening. As far as a curved forearm, look at the BF's. They are curved, but this is not the issue, the issue lays with the on going flop stock configuration. As said, you need to attend the next WCC and see for your self what is taking place. No, it is not about running shooters off, its about keeping everyone on the same level. If I a fended you by stating to this post, then I am sorry for it. But in the same token, would it be fair for a shooter to rest his firearm on the top of his boot shooting creedmoor position? Would it a fend you for a shooter to use a bi-pod on the end of his forearm? How about a benchrest to shoot all disciplines? What you are saying this may run shooters off as well.

Bruce, we are good, and your comments are appreciated. I am not angry at anyone - I am going to continue shooting what I have no matter what the outcome of this is. My life situation has changed; I have recently retired and realize that I will probably never be able to afford another trip to the Internationals (last one attended was 2004 !) The shooters in Louisiana that shoot flop hold their guns pretty much the same way that I do, so I think that no one here is violating the rules. I wish that they would leave the dimensions alone, but I have no say in that decision. We will continue to encourage shooters to shoot with us, but our matches are poorly attended, and our shooter base is, sadly said - OLD ! All this being said - I have no plans to "chop-up" my fore ends if any new rules deem them dimensionally illegal. I will just shoot for the fun of it, which is what we all should be doing - and we do not turn shooters away !

[xp-100]

Phillip your on the right track. As stated, the WCC is getting out of hand with some of their modifications and thing need to come back to the rules on which our sport was accepted on. For what I see with your forearm it is legal for as said look at the EA Brown BF with the cured forearm. And with what you are doing it is not an aide to use as for shooting. One needs to actually see what has happened to our sport at the WCC and then one would actually appreciate the rules and rule book. I know somethings need to change and rewrite some of the rules, but to take things on your own and expect it to pass is another question.
BTW, one day we may drop in on you for a shoot. take care.

[contender1121]

To clarify what I wrote about this - lets make every effort to be as clear about this as possible, to avoid any further "misunderstanding" ! My only other question - why has it taken so long for someone to "speak up" about this "infraction" ? Jackie, how will this affect the Okie "flop" shooters ??

I agree 100% about clarity. "Shooting aid" is perhaps a poor choice of words. A trigger is a shooting aid. Sights on a gun are shooting aids.
I can't speak for anyone else's anatomy but my own, but right where my wrist watch sits, my forearm is flat. I have two guns, one TC and one Unlimited air pistol that have wooden forends that are flat as a pancake on the bottom. So, this rule means that my guns are not legal. Flat against flat is a "shooting aid". Now, I know that this is not the INTENT of this rule change but this is what happens when the proverbial can of worms is opened and things are not thought out as to all the ramifications.
I have my doubts that our rules chairman bolted upright in the middle of the night and said "any contouring on Unlimited stocks is an outrage and must be stopped immediately!" Someone, who is most likely NOT a flop shooter, got a case of red-ass over a concave shape on the bottom of stocks and fired a flare that started this fire. Their thought process makes them think that this "contour" gives flop shooters an unfair advantage. I can tell you from experience that resting a seven pound pistol (with a groove in the bottom of the forend) across the back of your wrist is NOT like using Velcro. One's skin is not glued to the bone structure underneath and the least little movement of the gun moves that skin.
One way to cure the problem (if indeed there is one) is to rule that the bottom surface of all forends shall have a convex radius of not more than, say two inches. That takes care of curved wrists and flat forearms.
This whole mess obviously needs to go back to committee for "further consideration".
My opinions are my own. The old saying rings true "Opinions are like a**holes, everyone has one".

[braud357]

Phillip your on the right track. As stated, the WCC is getting out of hand with some of their modifications and thing need to come back to the rules on which our sport was accepted on. For what I see with your forearm it is legal for as said look at the EA Brown BF with the cured forearm. And with what you are doing it is not an aide to use as for shooting. One needs to actually see what has happened to our sport at the WCC and then one would actually appreciate the rules and rule book. I know somethings need to change and rewrite some of the rules, but to take things on your own and expect it to pass is another question.
BTW, one day we may drop in on you for a shoot. take care.

Bruce, you and Stuart are welcome ANYTIME !!!!

[260 Striker]

I have seen some examples on FB just now and wonder if they are conforming to BATF definitions. At one time the BATF did not allow "vertical" forends over so many inches perpendicular to the bore. Some examples sure look fat on the bottom and may not conform to BATF rules. I tried to Google the current BATF rules but could not find explicit definitions. I have the same opinion as several others, I don't care.

[willk]

Been a member here since 2000 (#55993). I have seen more fights about what is right and what is not right. Not one has done one little bit to advance the sport.

Let’s all look at his with serious eyes. Creedmoor, Dead Frog, Taco, standing with a six inch scope base and a 20x rifle scope.

None and I do mean NONE of these positions are traditional handgun shooting positions.

And now we are upset over some of the stocks used in Flop??

Do you people want to shoot silhouettes or do you people want to argue over a vague rule that in the end, will keep people from shooting. Remember, shooting is income for the association.

My point, this is about change, change for survival. Life is about change. What does it hurt to accommodate? As far as I am concerned; unlimited should be a box rule. If it fits in the box (with demensions set by rules) and it meets weight. Its a legal IHMSA handgun.

[bkraft]

What he said. I've said it before here, we as an organization are in very real danger of fading into the sunset. We will nit-pick ourselves out of existence. This forearm, or that position, 1x red dots. Evolve or die it's that simple.