Contradicting Rules

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Contradicting Rules

Postby 260 Striker » Wed May 10, 2017 1:01 pm

Been reading the rules again (gets me in trouble) and I see several rules that seem to contradict each other so wanted to get some comments from the members.

Rule Section VI.A.10 explains how a stock, grip or forend may be replaced with a cataloged item then later Sectopm X.A.2.B states applied friction material or rubberizing on any part of the handgun is not allowed. I see this as contradicting each other when Hogue and Pachmayr grips and forends for TCs (and other guns) are entirely legal. We see many fancy painted bolt guns in Unlimited that can get very slippery on some days while shooting and usually they are using calibers more potent than Production guns. I see a case where it would be safer to allow unlimited guns to have some ability to improve the grips to ensure safer gun handling. I use Talon grips on my personal semi-autos and could see using this same type material on my XPs. Just curious why rubberized grips are OK on Production guns and Revolvers but not allowed on Unlimited guns.

Second contradiction.
Section X.A.2.C states muzzle brakes not allowed on barrels less than 12" but then Section XII.Class Rules.4 states ported barrels are allowed in PH as long as they are shot in a SAFE position. Now why would a PH entry with a ported barrel be any different/safer than someone using a ported DW or Taurus revolver in other categories? Are there lots of ported DWs and Taurus revolvers shot in other categories today? NO, but they could be used if not for this rule. Taurus makes some accurate 357 and 44 revolvers that could be competitive in FP for example.

Neither of these rules are causing any great difficulties at our local matches but I think these are issues that could at least be cleared up in our rules. I understand how the PH/ported issue came about since PH rules were just tacked onto the back of our existing rule books. When any rule change is proposed, all rules should be looked at to present a consistent meaning to all prospective and current members.

Just curious if I am the only one who notices things like this.
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Re: Contradicting Rules

Postby IHMSA80x80 » Wed May 10, 2017 6:07 pm

The idea behind your first rule question was that it was OK for you to use those Pachmayr grips, or whatever factory made grip was available, because anyone could purchase the exact same grip and thus things would be equal among all competitors.

If one were allowed to rubberize a stock or apply friction materials to their personal handgun, then that could be an advantage over someone else who didn't do that. OK, then why not allow everyone to do that? Then you have no control over the stocks...someone could find some special material that was like glue, or make something up. That material may not be available to everyone on an equal basis, or the application was different, and then you would have unequal gripping ability between different guns. At least with the allowed Pachmayr grips, they are all exactly the same.

As for the second rule...personally, I thought that was a ridiculous rule to allow some ported guns in some categories but not all categories. A feeble attempt to get handgun hunters who might have those devices to join IHMSA. Those new shooters have a far less clue as to what is a safe position than those of us who have been shooting this game awhile.
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Re: Contradicting Rules

Postby 260 Striker » Thu May 11, 2017 3:42 pm

I see your reasoning for item number one as it applies to Production legal guns. My example was more for unlimited guns and handling the more potent cartridges usually found in U-guns. With the advent of $2K revolvers and even some Production guns now near $1K the idea of being even for all shooters has gone by the wayside. I'm also wondering if using one of the slip on grips from Pachmayr on an Unlimited stock would be legal under the current rules. As far as the porting rule, apparently non-PH shooters are more dangerous so they can't be trusted as much. I also think people today shoot IHMSA more for the fun of shooting steel than trying to beat all the other guys/gals. At least I am there just to have fun regardless whether I get beat (usually) or not. Some IHMSA shooters might be shooting because of the competitive challenges but I think the gray haired crowd is still doing it because it is fun. Regardless of current rules, I don't expect to see any/many changes to them in the future. I only bring up things like this since some new (and old) shooters get confused by our rules.
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Re: Contradicting Rules

Postby i26963 » Fri May 12, 2017 7:11 am

I have asked this question a bunch of times.
You can have a TC Contender with a checkered, rubber forend, but you can't have any rubber material on your XP!?
Personally, I don't care what anyone uses, but we have "regulated" ourselves almost to extinction.
People get bent out of shape when someone's suede leg guard accidentally forms a crease and call it artificial rest. Name me one type of pants , much less,a leg guard, that does not form a crease when in Creedmoor.
They call that a rest, but someone in dead frog position has the entire forend supported on top of their leg. Can anyone seriously say that a small crease in a leg guard offers more support than the top of the leg?!
I am for any safe shooting position, including dead frog, prone, etc.but my gosh, lets use a little common sense
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Re: Contradicting Rules

Postby nutcase » Fri May 12, 2017 8:32 am

The rubberizing of stocks is a really old rule dating back to when IHMSA was formed. It is actually a throwback to Rifle silhouette which does not allow rubberizing of stocks at all. If somebody presented a proposal to drop this, this one may pass.

The ported barrels though, you are getting 2 different disciplines mixed together. the rule that allows ported barrels concerns Practical hunter ONLY. if you notice, Practical hunter has no barrel length restrictions, only restrictions in overall gun length. Practical hunter does not follow the same rules as the other disciplines.

Overall, our rules are simple. If you want to see some Highly restrictive rules, Look at the IMSSU rules. They even regulate the shape and length of forends on guns!
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Re: Contradicting Rules

Postby high standard 40 » Fri May 12, 2017 11:17 am

I too do not understand why it would be legal to use a 4" ported barrel in Practical Hunter, but not legal to use a ported barrel of any length in Production. seems hypocritical to me.
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Re: Contradicting Rules

Postby 260 Striker » Fri May 12, 2017 1:12 pm

Dan, I understand your comment about the difference between PH and other disciplines but my point is how can a ported gun, regardless of barrel length, be legal AND SAFE to shoot in PH but be illegal in other disciplines? PH can be shot in any freestyle position as long as it is safe so why isn't the same rule applied to non-PH entries as long as they are shot in a safe position? A person could take a ported gun and shoot a legal PH entry in a safe freestyle position then want to shoot the same gun in say Revolver (if the PH gun was a revolver) but would not be allowed. That just doesn't make sense.
As far as rubberizing goes I look at that as more of a safety issue than trying to get an advantage. The more control a shooter has over their handgun the safer they will be. i26963 also touched on creases in pant legs and even shooting from dead frog as advantages but again I see that more as safety. I have had too many guns slide down my leg during shooting and that bothers me more than missing a target and more of what would have happened if I had lost control of the gun. Even the shooters using the flop position have more control of their guns today since both supporting hands are directly grounded on the shooting platform/mat and I don't think that means they have an advantage just better control. IHMSA has moved from a purely competitive sport to more of casual have fun shooting, at least where I shoot.
Its ironic how many rules are overlooked at local matches since everyone is just shooting to have fun. Guns don't get weighed, inspected and if someone wants to shoot a 10 pound bench handgun at steel it is allowed but IHMSA doesn't get dues for that entry. Rifle matches, bordello shooting and other types of non-sanctioned entries are keeping some of these small clubs alive.
Bottom line, I'm OK with the current rules but just don't see the logic in some of the rules like I did back in the 80s and 90s.
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Re: Contradicting Rules

Postby nutcase » Mon May 15, 2017 5:12 am

I agree partly with you but Unless we submit the appropriate requirements, the rules will never get clarified or changed.

if you want a rule clarified, Submit this to the rules committee at Any time. Del Taylor is the rules committee chairman. I noticed that Del is only listed as the region 6 director. I need to have the "Contact Us" section of the home page changed to include contact information for the rules committee and the Physically challenged director (and maybe more).

If you want a rules change, this needs to be submitted in Writing, 60 days prior to the Board or general meeting which will be held during the world champs. We are just over 60 days prior. anything to be considered needs to be submitted to the IHMSA Secretary/treasurer.

Last year, we voted on allowing Voting/submittals via electronic means. That means we should no longer have deferred proposals due to a lack of quorum. board members can now submit their vote via electronic method even if they are not at the world champs.

as soon as I get some articles from certain people, I should be getting the Newsletter out. This one should have all match results since august in it. I want everything caught up when I turn over the reins to the new editor, but this may not happen till July when me and the new editor can meet face to face. Until I get further notice from the board, I will still be doing All Match related functions for HQ.

and just for info, The match software is being updated but I found out he is doing a complete rewrite of the software and when he gets this completed is anybody's guess. This is a lot of work and Just remember a company I used to work for, it took a year for 12 programmers to get the software working. We have 1 person working on this.

and last, after I figured this out, I am Nowhere near ready for the world champs! It is now May and I still have not shot a .22 gun! along with my half size gun which is getting re-barrelled and may not be done in time for the champs :(
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Re: Contradicting Rules

Postby 260 Striker » Mon May 15, 2017 10:18 am

Dan, Thanks for the update. Over a year ago I started a topic on the forum about adding some new cartridges for FP and I even submitted it in writing to be evaluated and voted on. It just went into a black hole somewhere. There was some transitioning going on at HQ at that time so I think that it got caught up in that turmoil. It would be nice for the membership to see ALL proposed changes that are presented to the rules committee for consideration to get feedback from a broad range of members. I realize not all members use the forum but at least that would give the committee a broader view of proposed changes than just the smaller body on the committee. Opinions differ about leaving things the way they are or making changes that might improve our sport. With our electronic way of reaching out to multiple members the decision to make any changes may at least be tested before any rules get adopted. HQ is making progress in reaching out to members across the U.S. and even our foreign friends so evaluating proposed rules electronically should also be considered. At least reach out to all the MDs with email addresses to ask for local shooter inputs. Of course HQ and the Board have the final say on which proposals would come up for general vote. IHMSA HQ has been making progress the last several years to help our sport so keep up the great work.
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