For Discussion - Expanding the Reg 2 BB & HS Championship

[AtomicDogg]

I'm posting this suggestion to open a discussion within Region 2 about our continued ability to having a BB, HS, SB and FP Championship. We are now down to only a couple of ranges in Region 2 that maybe capable of hosting a Regional BB & HS Championship [ Kentucky - Anderson County; Virginia - Piedmont Sportsman; South Carolina - Black Creek; North Carolina - Buccaneer; and Georgia - Little River].

We have not had a Region 2 SB & FP Championship in the last five years or so, with the exception of the 2013 Region 2 SB & FP Championship hosted by Virginia - Piedmont Sportsman Club in 2013. In addition, we have lost a couple of ranges in the last year or so; which makes it more difficult for members in those affected areas to have a place to shoot all the disciplines.

Maybe we should consider extending the number of days for the Region 2 Championship and including BB, HS, SB, FP and possibly 1/5th scale. This would give individuals a chance to shoot more guns of their choosing, especially since we no longer typically have the two separate Region 2 matches. Another thing that might increase participation would be to make it an "Open Championship"; which would allow out-of-region shooters to be eligible for Aggregate, Category and Class Championships.

In establishing this expanded championship; it might be prudent to require pre-registration and pre-payment; since the biggest expense for most clubs would be to provide Target Setters.

I only offer this as a starting point for discussion.

[wheelgun7360]

enjoyed our conversation amigo and i'll second the plan if we can get a club to host this match in the future. allen

[AtomicGun]

I forgot to mention the possibility of shooting 40 rounds versus 60 rounds; which would reduce the amount of time you are on-line, which means you could shoot more guns or have more down time. The biggest drawback to 40 rounds would be the additional perfect scores and shoot-offs; which could be handled by requiring a 5 or 10 round shoot-off immediately after posting a pre-determined score.

[AtomicDogg]

Forgot to mention the possibility of shooting 40 rounds versus 60 rounds in the expanded Region 2 Championship. This would allow for an individual to shoot more guns during a championship match or more downtime, since we would have expanded the number of guns available to shoot in the championship match. The biggest drawback to 40 rounds would be the increase in number of perfect and tied scores, requiring additional shoot-off time. This could be easily managed by "requiring" an individual to complete a course of "shoot-off" firing for that gun sometime during the course of fire for that day for any scores above a pre-determined score. All tied scores at the end of the match after consideration of the required shoot-offs would be part of the end of match shoot-offs.

[ole95]

Adding SB & FS would be big plus for me
40 round match has some advantges
Open or closed shoot i guess only maters
To someone just coming to win. I mean it not
Like you win a new car and get interviewed
On Sports Center

I'm for what ever will get people to come and not
Over burdon the host
Jrs

[35isit]

I'm speaking from the experiences we had running two ECC Championships.

Range setup: Mechanical reset is the best. I know not every club has them. It makes it easy to shoot 5 then set 5. You can run more shooters through faster with less "wait time" between banks of 5.

40 vs 60 round match: I personally feel unless you have mechanical resets you should have a 40 round match. If it's a 40 round match your targets should be set in banks of 10, that way a shooter completes a relay before the target setters go down range. This minimizes down time. I know a lot of ranges shoot 5 and set 5 even at their monthly matches and are used to it, but it in effect doubles the number of trips to set targets.

Having all the disciplines together makes sense. From my standpoint the money it cost to travel far was beginning to get prohibitive, especially since I only shoot scoped categories now. Also some wives or children may come and shoot if other disciplines are offered. Those that want to shoot for an aggregate can plus they can shoot a few other guns as well.

Trophies, by and large most of us do not go just to get a piece of wood. Enough trophies for a match this size is costly. If it were to be done again in Lawrenceburg there would be no trophies at all. We would have lowered the price and had t-shirts both years.

Having an open championship is fine. We have the start of something good already, The ECC. TUSCO stepped up this year. If this is the only year they want it perhaps someone else might step up and host it. If enough clubs can rotate, you would only have to host it once every 5 years or so. Then again they may want it every year. I feel we can draw shooters no matter where it's at. I feel for those shooters in the western part of Region II, they have no range to host a match of this type right now.

Never ever combine one match into two. It is a paperwork nightmare.

These are some of my thoughts. You can agree, disagree and call me crazy.

[BADDOG-0302]

Wayne Smith here, long story about the new "handle".
1. Greg has a good idea in rotating ranges so no one club does all the work every year. The first step would be to find 4 or 5 clubs capable & willing to host a combined BB HS,SB & FP
2. Target setters; This could be limited to B & HS IF SB & FP shooters agreed to set their own targets. Due to the aging of the membership {not moving as fast as we once did} this would diffidently limit the match to 40 rounds.
3. Trophy's; I don't think they are necessary, if someone wants one tell them they are free to buy what ever trophy they want.
4. Dates, Reg 2 has always been over the Labor day weekend, IF, due to scheduling conflicts, a club should publish their dates they want no later that mid Jan. of the year they plan to hast the match.
Also for consideration.
Since the number of ranges shooting BB are dwindling fast, maybe a similar discussion should be started for SB,FP & ?? 5th scale.

[i26963]

I waited a few days to see what kind of response RW would get. The lack of no more than a couple of responses , both to this forum, and emails to all of RII members sent by Robert, to me, is the crux of the problem. No one is willing to commit to attending a big match. Little River Gun Club consists of Robert, Ken Hale, and myself!!! We have no "club" to receive funds to run a match. Robert and I have spent a lot of our own money, not to mention time, on keeping silhouette going at LRGC. At our State match this past Sept., we had almost as many out of state shooters as our own GA shooters. We did not even break even on the match. RW and I do it because we love silhouette shooting and the people. But, if we can't even get our GA shooters to attend regularly then there is going to come a time when we say it is not worth it. Some only come when they don't have anything, and I mean anything, else to do. We have to pay our target setters the same if we have a big or small crowd.
If, and it's a big if, we ever put on another RII match, we will require advance registration, and payment. And have a cutoff on when we would offer refunds. If we didn't have enough by a certain date to make it feasible, then it won't happen.
Having a RII match when there is a ECC scheduled the same year, within a month of the RII match, is just not feasible. People(with the exception of a few), will not attend 2 big matches that close together.
J Melvin

[35isit]

No one wants to hear this. But some regionals and world championships are slowly dying. From lack of ranges to host them, match directors willing to host them, the economy and shooters not willing to attend. There are a myriad of reasons for each of the things in the previous statement. I firmly believe that matches like the ECC, WCC, L.A. Extravaganza and other such matches thrive because a core group gets behind them and attends. Again there are a bunch of reasons for that also. The eastern part of the U.S. has a large number of shooters in it, there should be no reason that any match is not heavily attended. We have not had a state match in Ky for about 10 years or more. Why? Because no one attends. As Melvin stated people only come if they don't have absolutely anything else to do.

Since in the past bunch of years it has been the same people attend the "region 2" match, perhaps we forgo that and just have the ECC. I actually put on a combined Region II match with the ECC last year. It did not draw any extra shooters. I do realize the match was held in April. I had more shooters from Ohio than probably anywhere. The states represented in Region II were Ky, Va, Ga, NC, SC, and Al. Tusco, Lawrenceburg, perhaps Terre Haute In, Lincolnton Ga, Sanford Fl, Wilmington N.C. Black Creek S.C. Charlottesville Va and maybe someone I forgot or don't know is capable of hosting this. Region III which is Oh, Pa, In and Mi are having problems also. They have been looking for a Regional Director for about 5 years now if I'm correct. At the ECCs we hosted we attempted to entertain the shooters. We offered every discipline, allowed free camping, tried to feed everyone good meals and keep the match on schedule. That's why in my previous post I opted for 40 round matches and to run them the way I suggested. Of course that is for clubs with manual reset targets.

While Wayne brings up a valid point of setting your own targets, I do not agree. It makes the match interminably long. People walking back and forth to 100 yards takes for ever. If a club has to have manual target setters, they should work a year in advance coming up with them. Then pay them more than what the job is worth. We have asked for volunteers before, but never made anyone set their own targets in the 28 years I've shot at my home range.

I think as shooters we want a fun match that moves quickly. Each of us has our own amount of mileage and hours from home we will travel. Some camp some stay in hotels. We just want to have fun.

[AtomicDogg]

My perspective:

a) Setting your own targets removes some of the fun from a match and you always have shooters who are unable or unwilling to do their fair share; for what ever reason. I also recognize that having Target Setters increases the cost of a match and the only way to solve that issue is to have more shooters so that the cost is spread out among many.

b) I have suggested bringing in all the IHMSA disciplines in order to give folks who only shoot scoped guns more opportunities to shoot more guns; this also helps that states where some disciplines are no longer offered. Because of expanding the offering for the Region 2 match or what ever the match may be called; I have suggested only shooting 40 rounds instead of the current championship rounds of 60 or 80. If you only shoot 2 or 4 guns, no problem; but if you shoot 8 or 10 guns.....then 60 rounds just draws out the match. I recognize the fact that it's harder to shoot a 60 or 80 versus and 40; but when you take into consideration the time involved and the cost if you do not have a auto reset system; I think the
trade-off is worthwhile. I believe that 80 rounds is one of the negatives of the World Championships; when there were only 4 or 5 categories in BB and SB that was fine, but now that there are ~ 18 categories, not counting Practical Hunter and Air Pistol; it's just too much.

c) Probably gone for ever are the days when shooters would attend more than one big match a year.....that's why it will be critical to communicate and schedule so that we do not try offering multiple matches in the same year.

If we do not solve this issue and try to go it alone; even intra regionally, in the end we are going to damage our chances of remaining a viable sport. Now is the time to act !!!!!